And with a similar base assumption as Islam would resemble Islam as time goes on and Entropy sets in the Good, the Bad, and the Ugly. I think this is true. Man is unable to save himself and, therefore, God must initiate salvation. And I kind of doubt youre on call to give your Testimony in church; it just doesnt jibe with the Conventional Christianese Testimony. FWIW, Ive run across many Calvinists (not teachers) who misunderstand Total Depravity. Re Calvinism, part of the problem (and approach) is defining just what Calvinism is. Feels your pain with you. You should consider it though it is a pretty long video. Horton made it clear that he did not agree with all of Olson's assertions. . John Hagee. I believe Sproul when he says that he knows of no Calvinist who, without any difficulty, welcomed what the Bible said about election, etc. Im not always that good at explaining things well. elatigirl Im with you here, which is why I dont post much on these theological threads It seems useless to me to try to figure out God especially as Scripture makes it clear that he has many attributes on either end of the spectrum. There are sound Christian people out there who are willing to admit this. There are definitely some clearly Calvinist ideas that I disagree with. c) I want to move conversations about abuse beyond the Calvinism discussion because I think its a massive red herring. I hear the word "gospel" placed in front of all primary and secondary issues. Some, myself included, who spent years in controlling and abusive churches would say that to be infantilised is the last thing we need. If the plumb line for perfection is NO yeast, then of what relevance is the statement: The bread is not as yeast-y as it could be. We didn't worry so much about exacting doctrine. My theologys still up-in-the-air, and I dont care if it never comes down. list of non calvinist theologians. So in other contexts your Calvinism/steak analogy is right as far as I know. There are Christians who remain Christian, who believe in Christ, without seeing Calvinism supported in the Bible. Olson made the point that it was his goal to represent Calvinism in a way that Calvinists would agree with his characterizations, if not with his conclusions. Im not sure if Im doing justice to the guys views in how Im explaining it, so watching his video may be better. I was drawn to the faith forseveral years due to my reading as well as viewing Billy Graham on the television. Yet why do I still love Jesus, the Bible and read so many Christian authors? @ Jeff S: I understand, and realize that you *do* wrestle with this as do we all, to a greater or lesser degree. Again, if it were a matter of someone, as I put it earlier, beating someone over the head with their beliefs, that would be different. As leader of the Anti-Revolutionary Party in the Netherlands he served as Prime Minister of his country from 1901 to 1905. Just a few thoughts for you. Hes already won me to his side. To me, being fed pat answers is more analogous to being fed sawdust because fibre is good for you. But it is you, a man like myself, my companion, my close friend, with whom I once enjoyed sweet fellowship at the house of God, as we walked about among the worshippers. Hester, I am eagerly waiting for you to do your next blog post! But, knowing that this type of discussion triggers upsetting thoughts, why did you encourage it? Does not compute. My humble opinionyet supported by scripture, is that the doctrines of unconditional election, limited atonement, and meticulous sovereignity (the last is not a pillar) villify and slander the name and character of Christ. After all, there are reasons lots of men and women have bought into it over the last few hundred years. It stopped making sense when God began to show me in many profound ways that He loves me. First of all, I agree with what Jeff S wrote about the word leaders. Also, even if I considered someone a leader, I dont march in lockstep with him/her. This has something that has really been important when writing, commenting, and moderating on ACFJ. NEVER allow them an unchallenged presumption. I dont know why I didnt think of this earlier. I really think that we have to go to Scripture with the intent of honestly, to the best of our ability, seeing what it says and submitting to its truth, instead of wanting it to confirm our beliefs. Id like to comment on one: Accept that Calvinists find peace in trusting that God has orchestrated even the specific tragedies in life. Your next sentence is They do not understand why this brings others great pain.. God from all eternity did, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass: yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin, nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures, nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.. IMO he has helped destroy the Southern Baptist Convention, but no one dare tell him this. When I first discovered Reformed theology, I was a student at Dallas Theological Seminary. Why didnt he write a short book on a more important subject, like Robert Burtons The Anatomy Of Melancholy, written after Calvins death? Grew up in Arlington.Christian (immigrant) family. CALVIN! I didnt say childish. Thank you for letting me know what you think Jesus meant. I was the outside force that acted on the chalk by throwing it at you. How dare he write such a long work! 1 Systematic Theology Berkhof, Louis (Author) English (Publication Language) Inevitably, then, youll sometimes find restless young men who want to make a name for themselves (and who hasnt been there) (other than restless young women) will take the idea and make it a point of honour to run as far as they can with it. Pardon me if I show my bias toward breastfeeding and please indulge me a bit. I think this is a bigger issue than Calvinism- its one fundamental to Christianity. Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by bjonson, Jan 10, 2006.,,,, But something has changed in the last number of years. You should see another Christian blog where the wars are almost as bad (hatred-wise) as the different Muslim sects slaughtering each other in Iraq & Syria. I wont go into all of them. We can learn to receive it all. Olson coined the label "Pannenberg's Principle" forWolfhart Pannenberg's argument (1969) that God's deity is his rule "The divinity of God and the reign of God in the world are inseparable."[6]. JeffB Great question and Im glad you asked. I actually believe that part of our problem lies in the human drive to tie up our theology into a logically consistent package, thus filling in, with human reason, places where the Scripture leaves spaces. I think the way to achieve this is to leave Calvin/theology out entirely and instead actively love/listen/show compassion. At first, I thought I had missed something in my Christian walk. So, does God elect people who are only a little totally depraved as opposed to those who are totally totally depraved? Reformed. I find that to be an amazing God thing. @ Bridget: JeffS we were writing at the same time. Even if we say we agree in the fundamentals/indisputables Calvinism makes it clear, and both Jeffs have admitted, that there is no human agency capable of understanding truth fully. This way of thinking goes against what Calvin said about freewill, the Westminster Confession of Faith says about freewill, and what every Calvinist Ive ever met says about freewill. I dont want to speak out of turn here, but I wonder if the word calvinist should be banned, like the word bitter, due to the frequency with which it is taken out of context and/or the extent to which it means different things to different people. The word Gospel which meant so much to me as a new Christian, now seems a bit foreign. You are still lost in your finite mind. Founders made the list, as did John Piper, Jonathan Edwards, RC Sproul, James White and the first Southern Baptist confession of faith (which is still used at Southern and Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminaries, and which even the famous non-Calvinist Paige Patterson has signed), the Abstract of Principles. This is as it should be, imo. A brain tumor has already been successfully removed, which gives us hope for the next surgery (lung, rib, chest area) and the radiation/chemo to follow. That article Early Jesus Freak Movement Hollywood Free Paper country As Sixties(TM) as Rowan & Martins Laugh-In and then some. Did you see my comment in the post about a nice Calvinist? Association of Related Churches However, Burk made the comment that the wrath of God was at the center of the Gospel, and later on a commentor stated that to not understand PSA is to believe a different Gospel. I am not saying that you or anyone else *shouldnt* feel that way that would be absurd. Michael Horton, a Calvinist, did the forward to the book. Reformed theology celebrates the glory of God. Right after I became a Christian, I purchased Jesus Christ Superstar! These tenets include, An emphasis on three foundational covenants: redemption, works, and grace An emphasis on the continuity between the Old and New Testament Pushing Calvin on a hurting individual is like pushing steak on an infant. I kept a notebook, carefully writing all of the arguments in favor of Calvinism. Apollos! discussions. Im sure you didnt mean every single one. (an extremely brief synopsis:) Of course, this is an attempt of a finite mind to describe the infinite, so it cant be perfectly accurate. This is a list of lists of Christian theologians organized by denomination, century, nationality, and additional specialized categories. But Jesus and he should know praised his Father for hiding these things from the wise and learned, revealing them instead to little weans. I know you know how to do that because Ive seen you do it at ACFJ. I think I stated why above. My hubby got his first spiritual stirrings while watching a live performance of, Jesus Christ Superstar. The wonderful commentaries writ-ten by Adam Clarke, Charles Ellicott, and Daniel Whedon, for example, have not been published for years. I have read at his site just a little bit and so far have found many of his thoughts very satisfying on all levels. If this is so, its really astounding. For some time now, my blog posts have pursued an inquiry of how non-Calvinists and Calvinists among Southern Baptists have come to be involved in a public conversation on their respective positions. The purpose of these posts is to build understanding, if thatis at allpossible. And what is an ocean but a multitude of single drops? I also was not the only one who reacted to this. My only reason for defending Calvinism here is because I want the focus not to be on Soteriology, but on fighting abuse. I DO think that Calvinism is misconstrued a lot by people in this position, but either way its not a good time or place to try and correct them. I have the utmost respect for my long-time regular reader and pastor who happens to be Calvinist, Craig Vick, who posted the following comment on my blog article where I was struggling with the doctrinal/abuse confusion: For what its worth, from now on Ill make sure I think of your story and the stories of others before I express my theology. I dont know. Seconding Numo, there are seats left at my table. On a site that deals with domestic abuse, it can very easily for discussion to descend into man hating. My bet would be that some (many?) People can make Reformed theology or Calvinism whatever they want, but the WCF is a clear historical document that does a good job of giving a baseline for discussion. Of course the bewildered question of why didnt God? will inevitably come up. God does indeed work in mysterious and wonderful ways It is counterproductive., I dont understand, then, why, on your blog, you allowed a Calvinism Free For All. I didnt notice any Calvinists telling people that God wanted you to be raped, or something like that. 3:1-2) is saying that their are parts of the Word that are more elementary than others, not that those parts are any less important. The first two Baptist theologians were John Smyth (ca. Jeff Swith respect, I have never asked anyone to shut up. Of late it has been a struggle not yo become angry at some YRR who belittle my longtime walk with the Lord because I am not a Calvinist. For this reason, it is often called "God-centered" theology. HERE AHURA-MAZDA, THERE AHRIMAN!. If you define Calvinism that way, then I am certainly not a Calvinist, but neither is my church, the PCA, nor even was Calvin himself. NOT throwing out common sense and reasoning, but understanding that there are limitations to this. I disagree on some points with everyone I respect. Good point. The theology is weak. My point was this idea that God has foreordained every word I say, therefore, I cannot be wrong. I have to admit-this made me giggle. So far, we both agree. Philosophers (not necessarily Christian ones) have wrestled with these questions for thousands of years without any real answers. And those of us who see the logical cause and effect of Calvinism-to-abuse are against Calvinism because we dont WANT the powers that be to be the power any more. Calvinist believe in the total depravity of man while Arminians hold to an idea dubbed "partial depravity." Calvinism: Because of the Fall, man is totally depraved and dead in his sin. If a megachurch pastor somewhere announced that as a Calvinist he was now going to start killing and eating babies, I would not hold this against small-c calvinists in general. The writers did claim to believe much the same, though, even that church and state should work together with the church ruling and the state enforcing church rule. Of course, they mean the local church that thinks like them. Some Calvinists will argue that being Non-Cal always means automatically being a universalist, denying the Scriptures, believing in a works-based salvation, or not believing in Gods sovereignty, etc. @ Nick Bulbeck: Baptist commentaries are the work of scholars and pastors who have served and ministered within the Baptist branch of the Christian faith. Can I ask you what your views are on RC Sproul and the Ligonier contingent? Change). And I *know* that I sounded every bit as naive as those kids in the article. The guy wearing glasses in the video gave an interesting explanation, though he chose to use the Fall in the Garden, rather than a more contemporary example. I dont know if that helps or confuses- I wish I could have quoted more. Thats why. The crazy cycle can lead to suicide or walking away from God entirely. How wonderful to remember those days! He also read the Gospel of John for the first time, (it was given to him), while smoking pot. There are some statements Ive thought were wrong that weve let go through, because we think sometimes it is better to give a voice than stifle a hurting person because she doesnt get every last thing correct. Was your family Christian? I have never doubted the existence and presence of Jesus in my life. The 5 pillars of calvinism are not found in these creeds. But in doing so, I fear that people who might get a lot of benefit from Calvinism might be rejecting it for the wrong reasons. I am spelling out what is being taught, at least to my untrained ear, under the name of Calvinism, in hopes that we can all learn to: a)recognize where we are coming from, and b) respect those with very different takes on these things as brothers, sisters, and seekers. I have found peace in accepting that I will not fully understand in this life, and maybe not even in the life to come. We are also workers. My husbands extended family are Calvinists, his lovely aunts family goes to a Reformed (Calvinist) church in an area considered a Bible Belt in Canada (these are very small geographic regions, unlike the US, where it spans states, it spans about a county), the church is large, evangelical and allows women in all church leadership positions. Toward that end, here are five Baptist theologians from the past I commend as must reading for every Baptist pastor. Everything. I know. Wehad the opportunityto spend the weekend with Wade and his family. Sydney Anglicans are Calvinist, Moore College is strongly Calvinist, as of course are the Presbyterians and some Baptists. Often, along with inviting non-Calvinists to just "read the Bible," Calvinists like to type out longs lists of Bible quotes which the Calvinists thinks proves and defends the Calvinistic system of theology. (Putting it mildly!!!). I want us non-Calvinists to figure out how to get along with our Calvinist brothers and sisters. Could the person have simply avoided it and gone to someplace else without even making the comment? I had planned to say the same thing to him. What DOES bother me is when people reject something on the basis of misinformation. I would be happy, however, to never use the label Calvinist again, out of respect for Jeff and Jeff. I guess God can use bad things to lead us to a true knowledge of Him. Theres nothing wrong with pondering and wondering at the truths Jesus represents. But hes not saying that God is actively driving every aspect of that molecules behavior. Takes great delight in you living your life, the ups and the downs. Turn the other cheek when your salvation gets called into question. I get where you are coming from within your paradigm. OK, but if you choose to do evil instead of good, I mean. I believe that Calvin and, more importantly, Scripture says that nothing we think, say, or do comes as a surprise to God. I do believe that some brands have harmful elements that bring extra despair as if every day life doesnt bring enough. It's because Caleb was allegedly involved in multiple sexual relationships while on staff at daddy's church and he was, The Gospel Coalition now says not everyone can be a missionary. Im a musician in a band the skill level I have now is directly proportional to how many times Ive absolutely made a total fool of myself in front of people. We are brothers and sisters in Christ.,,,, In reply to forgiven-to-be-forgiving . Carson D. James Kennedy J.I. I did not but I definitely got the immigrant part and am proud of m Russian heritage. Im pretty sure that Calvin doesnt either, but Ill check on it. Ive tried to suss out how God can create everything that exists and still give us free will, and I dont get that either; but because God is bigger and more powerful than me, I believe that he did. I dont think this one is part of. By no means is this true, and Im willing to bet it never really has been. Lin wrote: So Sad. Any small error can lead us on to some very large mistakes if we arent careful. One more thing. Mhler taught at Tbingen and Munich. What about what God foreordained someone else to say that is different. My theologys still up-in-the-air, and I dont care if it never comes down. Can Calvinist and non-Calvinist Baptists work together? Jeff S, I read CS Lewis, Francis Schaeffer and many others. However, Brian (a Calvinist) brought up a new topic and I decided since there was so much dialogue, I could easily keep the debate to one thread. @ Junkster: It comes from theexperience of writing a blog for a long time and hearing the same old, same old. This website helped me tremendously as a recovering Piperite, and Im so grateful that I dont have to believe that God CAUSED this illness for some mysterious glory. Yes, God WILL receive glory somehow from it, but thats not his grand purpose. Calvin as a Ferengi LOL!!! YOU are never in a position to disagree or agree with their orthodoxy. It was you! If God had not give Adam and Eve a test and just stuck them there in the Garden with no choices, or had God forced them to be good, that itself is not an act of good, and God would have had two robots on his hands. . He said I was wrong. It doesnt cause comfort, which might be expected, but revulsion because of the nature of evil. The assuredness of the approach is arrogant. Glad to have someone who gets my background! I think that our doctrinal systems are mans attempt to understand based on what God has presented to us. God is not the only worker in the universe, however. Each Christmas, I am thankful that God works in mysterious ways. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding. I can know that such a rule/principle is wrong because Jesus said the two central commands are to love God above all and neighbor as self, and then he called the rest of the Bible, all the laws and principles to be an addendum to those central two laws. As you know, it was not written by Calvin. The Calvinistas act on a lot of things. They may, and most probably do, differ on other areas of theology but at least in soteriology, they do not hold to what is commonly known as the Doctrines of Grace or TULIP. In response to the devastation of a hurricane: @JohnPiper: Your sons and daughters were eating and a great wind struck the house, and it fell upon them, and they are dead.Job 1:19 We are brothers and sisters in Christ. Hmmm all I can say is, it depends on the individual and in what way theyre hurting. whats wrong with mess anyway? . Does that make me not a Calvinist? Every kindness & every meanness I do sends ripples outward and I birth the future by my words and deeds. "Pastor John C. Hagee is the founder and Senior Pastor of Cornerstone Church in San Antonio, Texas, a non-denominational evangelical church with more than 20,000 active members." ( His style is serious and intellectual. It is the ideas that underlie what Calvinism discusses that are problematic for all humans. Everything you are saying here is consistent with a Reformed view of human responsibility. But something has changed in the last number of years. That is a love that does not send babies or the mentally unable to hell, nor is it a love that creates people predestined to hell, but rather gives them a choice and only when repeatedly rejected, judges people for their rejection of him. Please feel free to cut and paste comments to which you are responding over at that other post. Some of the things he did/wrote/said kind of raise alarms, if Im honest the whole Servetus Thing, for instance, doesnt make anybody look good however you spin it. Im sure we will have our playful little jabs, and he doesnt mind dishing it. Mark Driscoll, John Piper and Tim Keller megachurch preachers and important evangelical authors are all Calvinist. It affirms that God is sovereign., Pg 79: Feel free to correct me if Im wrong. In what way it is wrong needs to be determined. So this is a goal for myself, as my family is growing up and I am finding a bit more time. Our sinful human nature craves it. The assuredness of the approach is arrogant. This, of course, is totally irrelevant. It is only required that we do not demean each other while in argument. . I have a very low tolerance for that kind of thing. The following are theologians, listed alphabetically, who are non-Calvinist in their soteriology. Because the complementarian doctrine is Gods will. I told her that I disagree with John Piper's take on this situation. It simply makes it harder for people who are trying to recover from abuse, and continue to believe that God is good and loves them, to want to engage in a search for Truth. In addition to Dees remarks on unity, Id also like to add the following: we all accept the historic Christian creeds of the early church (Apostles, Nicene, Athanasian). We each probably believe that the venue we hold to is the best and most accurate. Calvinism did not start with John Calvin. I am sure that there are other places that approach things this wayI just hadnt found them. But the main thing is that Ive been a Calvinist for a long time- probably 15 years. Meyer 17. It is counterproductive. Thanks for the kind words; I can only hope that they are at least partially true. I used to think I was too till I went to Bible College and studied it in more depth. I shall ask our readers to ray for him at the top of the home page. A secondary cause is always subservient to the primary cause, which is God. I ended up writing my final essay for my theology degree on the extent of the atonement. (My experience, from childhood on.). . Did you see my comment in the post about a nice Calvinist? Very good points on suggestions for non-Cs on how to view Cs. And unless I misunderstand Jesus diatribes against the teachers of the law, theres no filthier or more deceitful idolatry. Does not compute. Im eagerly awaiting my next blog post, too The blog kind of fell off the wayside due to some personal stuff that ate up most of my time. And it wouldnt matter to me if what the person said was true or not. There is a new evangelism taking place. Though I love discussing theology, I am a total lightweight compared to most (or all) of the participants in this conversation.Someday I hope to focus more on the study of how all the different denominations developed their spin.and the various characters who poured their lives into our Christian history. If we are acting primarily out of love, this becomes good works and is worthless. I got a taste of this by spending a couple of years in Ed Young Jr.'s church. Yes, Nouthetic Counseling and a lot of teachers have given this impression, but they are wrong. None the less and in spite of his ignorance in all things spiritual, he came to trust the Savior in 1973. all this proves is you are a weirdness magnet. And really, in the end, if a doctrine about the majesty and greatness of God doesnt comfort traumatized people (among all the needy humans out there), then of what real use is it? Does it say milk of the word? That sounds contradictory to the importance that many place on the word. Finally, we must work together whenever possible. Arminianism answers some of questions for me, not all of them. Oy. Ive been lurking through out this discussion. In any case, though, youre right. But the guy still strikes me as the I have Everything figured out! Wow. Okay, that makes it a little less OCD. Unless I either stop believing what I think is true or shut up about it, it seems I will forever put in a box of this nonsense, unloving idea that God is the author of evil and we are mindless automatons. Nicholas what a great link. Why? This is what some people have heard their entire life. And its a big enough issue that RC Sproul re-badges it to Radical Corruption. They do not understand why this brings othersgreat pain. I am going to quote liberally from Sprouls book Truths We Confess, Vol 1 about this section of WCF. In fact, Ive probably used that word less in the previous 14 years than I have this last year interacting online. That is where I focus when it comes to the existence of evil and suffering. The promises are over the top. @wartwatch Not even the milk toast "We regret if anyone was offended"? But I dont think I have to pick. Tell himhow much you love the Lord and live outyour Christianlife. The bullying was behind the scenes. Almost all theists (Calvinists, Arminian, other) agree that God could have- so why didnt he? We may diverge a bit here. Paige Patterson 18. What scientists call the laws of nature we call normal operations of the sovereign God. So thankful to be free, now. So very reasonable. When people reject Calvinism because they think it makes us mindless automatons, that bothers me because that isnt what it is about. I will never go back to Calvinism because I cant recall a single moment that I felt any certainty of Gods love for me in that system. It must start somewhere and with those who are willing to give up their cherished arguments for the sake of something better. Wesley and Whitefield came from opposite sides of the argument and yet I understand were able to have tolerable, if not friendly, relationships surely an encouragement to everyone else?
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